Wag: An Interview with Zazie Todd About The Science of Making Your Dog Happy
A few weeks ago, I was lucky enough to speak with Dr. Zazie Todd, my friend, colleague, and author of the amazing book, “Wag: The Science of Making Your Dog Happy” (released March 10 by Greystone Books). Before the interview I had read—and loved—Wag, and found it a fun challenge to come up with questions for Zazie about the book and about her work on her Companion Animal Psychology blog. Later, she told me the questions were “fiendish”. I’m quite sure she meant deliciously fiendish.
I’ve edited our conversation lightly for length and clarity.
KB: How has your passion about science communication dovetailed with your love of dogs in Wag?
ZT: it's been really fun to write Wag. And in a way, it's been a continuation of what I've been doing at my blog Companion Animal Psychology for almost eight years now, which is writing about what science can tell us about our pets. And I love writing about science.
It's been great to have the opportunity to speak to scientists and veterinarians and dog trainers about what they're doing to try and make the world better for dogs. And it's also been fun making sure that it's practical. So at the end of every chapter, I have a little section called “Apply the Science at Home”...it's a list of tips based on what was in that chapter. And then at the end of the book, there's a “Checklist for a Happy Dog” with some things that [the readers of Wag] can look at. Hopefully they will find things that they're already doing, that they can be really pleased [about]. And maybe they will also find a few extra things that they can add in. And so it's been so much fun trying to make this something that is going to be practical and useful to people as well as to just explain all this really fascinating science that we're getting, this better understanding of dogs.
KB: I read in a popular science article that an alarming number of dog owners don't walk their dogs. So how do you approach messaging about this to try and get more people giving their dogs this, you know, really important vital enrichment and exercise?
ZT: That's a really interesting question. And it's a good one because there are dog owners who are people who would take their dogs for walks whatever the weather, and they love it. And then there are dog owners who are kind of the opposite in that they rarely take their dogs for walks. And I think if you're in the camp that goes out with your dog every day, it's a bit of a surprise to learn that there are people who don't do that. So I think from a science communication perspective, it's interesting to know some of the reasons why that happens, and also why walking is good for dogs. So dog walks provide the dog with exercise, it’s enrichment, and they have lots of smelling opportunities. Hopefully dogs [will also] be getting off-leash opportunities, and maybe social opportunities if they see other people that they like or other dogs that they know. There is research that shows how important exercise and enrichment is, in terms of reducing behaviour problems.
There's a really interesting bit of research that I mentioned in the book...I spoke to Dr. Carri Westgarth, of the University of Liverpool. She spoke to people about why they walk their dogs and what they enjoy about it. One of the things she found was that for people who do walk their dogs, they like it because they know it makes their dog happy. So I think that's a really nice positive message to get across to people, that there are really good things for dogs about taking them for walks, and it will help to make your dog happy. And I think people can get behind that and that's very encouraging for people.
But at the same time, we have to remember that science communication is not just a one-way thing. So it's not just about us filling in information gaps that people have. We have to think about who we are communicating with, where they're at and what is important to them. And I think specifically when it comes to dog-walking, one of the reasons some people don't walk their dogs is because it's difficult for them. Because the dog pulls a lot, for example, or the dog is reactive. It helps to give people ways to solve those problems. If the dog is pulling, then the easiest thing is to get a ‘no-pull’ harness—that's one with the front clip—and for some dogs, that will be enough ([although] in some cases, you'll still need to do some positive reinforcement training on loose leash walking). So it's also about understanding where people are at, and what they need, or what they would like...and helping them with that. You have to see it as a two-way street.
KB: Okay, so I know that you love cats and dogs. And so I was just wondering if writing about dogs and spending so much time on this book has given you any new insights into cats, or the relationship that humans have with cats...did you have any cat ‘aha’ moments?
ZT: I think my cat ‘aha’ moment relates to how dogs and cats get along with each other. Because there is a short section in this book about how dogs and cats get along, about the importance of the cat feeling safe. And that really is the most important thing in the relationship between a cat and a dog. I think that makes sense when you think about the size of a cat; that a dog is potentially a threat to them. But following on from that, just as the cat needs to feel safe...dogs need to feel safe too, in their relationship with us. I think one of the things that came out [of writing Wag] for me about dogs, was about the need for a sense of safety.
KB: I loved reading about your dogs and cats in this book. And I really liked how you use your experience as a scaffold—it seems like at the beginning of every chapter, you use an anecdote to introduce the topic. So recognizing that there can be a problem with dog trainers delivering advice based on their very limited personal experience (I joke about ‘my one cattle dog’ type of trainers [who say things] like my one cattle dog does this, so everybody should do this). How did you balance personal experience and science?
ZT: For me, I tried to let the science be the main driver of the story, and then [add in] the stories about my own dogs...I love writing those and sharing those things. I had some [stories] that didn't make it into the book because I tried to pick ones that related to what I was writing about in terms of the science. So [the anecdotes were] to illustrate things, as you say, like a scaffold; a way to illustrate what I was about to write about in terms of science, or what I had just written about. I think it's a useful way for people to see their way through the science, and maybe also help them to think a bit more about their own dog. Because that's ultimately what matters: how they can apply this information to their own dogs and their own relationship with their own dogs.
KB: You got to dive into the works of some of the most interesting and forward-thinking dog researchers for your book, Wag. Did you have any gleeful ‘aha’ moments [*editor’s note: Kristi please stop using “aha moment”. Thank-you.] of your own, about yourself and your dog? Any introspective moments while doing the research?
ZT: I think my biggest ‘aha’ moment was to do with something that I already did, but it was to emphasize the importance of doing it even more. And that's [how] we can be a secure base and a safe haven for adult dogs. The research on how dogs feel about us suggests that it’s similar to the ways in which human children feel about their parents. For our dogs, we are a secure base from which they can go out and explore, and a safe haven to which they can return. And that really made me think about the responsibility of that, what that means in terms of caring for your dog. And in particular, because [my dog] Bodger can be a bit fearful at the vet...it just made me realize how important it is to take care of your dog and to be a safe, secure person for them; to keep an eye on when they are feeling stressed and to do everything you can to make them not be stressed.
KB: You and I share a love of metaphor, which was the topic of your PhD dissertation. So you're obviously more...metaphorical than I am, as far as the knowledge goes.
[Editor’s note: We laugh here. Fiendishly.]
So since metaphor is so useful for communication and the goal of Wag was to communicate in plain but compelling language about the science of dog joy, amongst other things...did you find yourself particularly pleased about any of the metaphors that you used?
ZT: Perhaps because I'm a metaphor person, I found that a really hard question.
[More fiendish laughter.]
We often think of metaphor as being something poetic, [but] metaphor is also very, very important in everyday language. There's a whole load of metaphors that we use [all the time], such as talking about good things typically being “up”, how the body is a container and the way we talk about emotions as “bubbling over” or something like that. So that's one thing. [Metaphors are] not necessarily very poetic all the time. The other thing about metaphor is that it's a tool of thought: it helps shape how we think about things. So it's actually really important to be using the right metaphors. And I think it's more that there was a metaphor I wanted to avoid, if I'm allowed to give that answer. I wanted to avoid [wolf] pack metaphors. Because when people talk about dogs, [if] they use a wolf pack metaphor for dogs...it somehow brings out the worst in people. I don't know entirely why, but it's, it's like it turns them into those army people from 80s films who are horrendous and yelling at people all the time and punishing them and making them go do lots of things...it's like it encourages people to be a bit aversive in the way they interact with dogs. So I wanted to try really hard to avoid that, and to use family metaphors instead, because they're much more nurturing and positive and about guidance and teaching. I think that's a better way for me. That's a much better way to think about dogs. Also, it fits with the way that actually we all increasingly think of dogs as family members these days, which I think is a really nice societal change that we're seeing.
KB: Yes.
ZT: I don't know if that's a good enough answer. That was the hardest question.
KB: That's an awesome answer. [We laugh]. I was kind of thinking you'd come up with something super clever, like “Well, on page 32, I…”
ZT: I know! I looked through and I was like, “No, I can't find anything like that.”
KB: Well, one of these days, you'll come up with a really clever one, and then you can tell me about it. Okay, so, here are some new questions that I don't think you already heard [I had passed along my previous questions to Zazie in advance of us speaking]. So sorry to be like, just...
ZT: No problem.
KB: So maybe it's good practice for your later interviews with journalists.
[We laugh].
I was interested in the biology versus culture question. I think it's Herzog who was talking about this...when it comes to acquiring a dog, biology is less important than culture [in other words, there are cultural differences in the desire to acquire a dog]. So considering that culture is a human trait, and humans are biological beings...so culture is a part of us and we are biological. How do you untangle the biology versus culture thing in your own thinking?
ZT: I think they are both entwined to some extent anyway, so I think it's really hard to untangle them. But the research by Hal Herzog was really interesting because it looks at cultural aspects of the kinds of dogs that people decide to get. And that's actually quite a big issue at the moment when you think about dog welfare because some breeds of dogs, especially brachycephalic [short-nosed] dogs can really struggle from a welfare perspective. They can actually literally struggle to breathe, some of them, and so the role of culture in choosing dogs, unfortunately, it does have some negative effects on dog welfare. Even if individually, people are making decisions that are right for them and their family, it's not necessarily good for dogs as a whole. And there is still a biological part because of the way we're drawn to neoteny in dogs [the way dogs retain puppy-like or baby-like characteristics into adulthood]. I think that does shape some of what we find attractive in dogs. We prefer dogs with baby-like expressions.
They are both entwined. But it's really interesting to see...Herzog’s research is really fascinating, and it's quite mind-blowing to see the effect that it has.
KB: So that actually leads us very nicely into my next question. What is your favourite way to be both gentle and realistic about the risks of brachycephalic dogs, and the welfare question, as a science communicator?
ZT: I'll be honest, I found that quite hard to write about in the book. But nobody goes out to get a dog that has health problems, they get a dog because they think it's cute, and they think it's the kind of dog that's going to fit with their family. And to a large extent, people don't really know very much about breeding practices...I think they have this belief that they are good. It was quite eye opening to find out that many puppies sadly come from puppy mills, where they are bred in really horrible conditions, and [some breeders] don't necessarily care about some of the things that maybe should be tested for. But also it turns out, it's really quite a difficult thing with brachycephalic breeds, because there is some very recent research that found that you can't just take all brachycephalic dogs out of the breeding pool because that would get rid of too much diversity in terms of other genetic factors. So it becomes a very complicated question to solve. I think the main thing is to remember that people get dogs because they love them, and they love their dogs. And it must be so hard to have a dog that has health problems that could have been prevented, perhaps by better breeding. And it must just be a horrible situation because we all know what it's like to have a sick dog, it is just a horrible thing. So I think you have to try and understand where people are coming from. And at the same time, just lay out what the how things are because people deserve, and need, good quality information. I think people want that kind of information.
So you have to tell them but at the same time, you have to understand that people are trying to be good dog owners, they love their dogs, and that's really important to remember, right?
KB: You occasionally sometimes use human development analogies between puppies and children. In the book, so what are the strengths of this approach for a general audience? And how do you mitigate the risks?
ZT: I do that because I think there are some similarities. I mean, sometimes people have said to me, “I think it's really strange that puppies have a sensitive period for development”. And so I think it's helpful for people to know that other species have similar kinds of things. In puppies, the sensitive period ends at 12 to 14 weeks. In kittens, it ends around seven to eight weeks. And in humans, it will be at different ages depending on what aspects of development you're looking at.
For most species, those early life experiences are so important, and I think it helps bring home how important they are...it's not just puppies that this applies to, but early life experiences for human children are really important for their future development too. I think that helps people to understand [the importance of socializing puppies]. I guess the risk is that people might be too anthropomorphic and treat their puppies like babies, perhaps. And I guess the other information in the book is very much related to what dogs need as dogs. So hopefully that risk is mitigated and good information about dogs comes through.
KB: Do you have anything that stands out as something that surprised you?
ZT: The one thing that really struck home for me was to do with the lifespan of overweight dogs, which is only like one line in the book I think, but the figures for the difference in lifespan for a normal weight dog compared to an overweight dog in particular breeds is actually quite large. ...For some dogs, it’s five months, I think...for German shepherds, and Yorkshire terriers, I think it’s 2.5 years...the difference is horrible to think about because ...all dogs live too short of lives, we can all agree on that. And then if they're overweight or obese, it knocks this extra time off and that really hit home for me. And I'll be completely honest, there have been times in Bodger’s life that he was overweight, because he was the kind of dog who likes to eat a lot…as many dogs are!
[We laugh, knowingly]
KB: It’s so hard! I mean, food is love and we just want to shove love in their mouths.
ZT: Yeah, that's right. But that data really hit home for me about what a big difference it makes.
KB: If you could just wave a magic wand, and do any research about dogs...well, what do you think is important to do? What would you do if you had a magic research wand, and you could fund and populate and crunch.
ZT: I would love to see some longitudinal research looking at puppies, and what happens to puppies when they're puppies and how that follows through in terms of their adult development and what they’re like as adult dogs. Well, one of the studies I mentioned right at the end [of Wag] is Generation Pup and Dogs Trust is just doing some longitudinal work like that. I can't wait to see the results. I think it's going to be really interesting...instead of just taking data at one point in time, to actually follow dogs through their lives and see what happens from when they’re very small... I think that's going to be really fascinating.
KB: Right? Absolutely. Especially with the puppy question [about how to socialize and how much] for sure. Was there any research that you really wanted to try and shoehorn in but you just couldn't make it fit?
ZT: Unfortunately, yes, there was actually a lot. I had to really focus on the research that I thought was most important for dog owners to know about happiness and dogs. There was a horrible point in the editing when I had to cut 10,000 words from the book. It was really hard. And yeah, unfortunately, there isn't as much as I would like, but at the same time, I think that forced me to be quite focused on what was most important for this particular topic. So the science that isn't included...some of it was really fascinating, interesting science, but it wasn't especially relevant to what I thought would help dog owners.
KB: I have two more questions about science communication...I don't think this is going to take too long to answer. So when you say things that the science is a bit up-in-the-air about, you often use phrasing that implies possibility...such as might mean that or may mean this, especially in your summaries at the end of each chapter. Do people who are unschooled in science interpret these cautionary phrases appropriately? And did you find that a tricky row to hoe as an author?
ZT: I hope they interpret them appropriately. I mean, I do say in the book that we need to learn more and we're always learning...so I think it's not that we already know everything we need to know; we still have a lot to learn. But I think that when we're not sure about something it's important to say that we don't know for sure yet, and we do need more research. I know sometimes people get fed up when you say ‘more research is needed’...but it's important to acknowledge when that's the case, because science builds on itself all the time. And that's actually one of the things that's really exciting about it.
KB: Right! Okay, so the last question here is that I loved your ‘Checklist for a Happy Dog’ at the end [of Wag]. Where did that idea come from? How did you come up with that?
ZT: Oh, thank you. Because...I'd been coming out with all these tips for the end of each chapter, I wanted to make it something that was really helpful and really useful for people. So I thought it would help to put the most important things into a checklist that people could use to see what they were already doing right, and what maybe they could do a little bit better, perhaps, from the dog's point of view. I wanted it to be useful. I wanted the book to be useful. So once I thought of it, I just had to do it.
KB: So did you just come up with it midway through the writing process kind of thing?
ZT: Yeah, yeah. It draws on things from throughout the book. So from across the whole of the book. And I guess in a way, it's a bit like a welfare checklist for dogs...thinking about what they need, and whether or not people are providing it. I think for some of those things, a lot of people will say, yes, they're doing it, and some things will be new for them. I'm hoping that some people will write and tell me what they found from the checklist ...which bits they found helpful, which bits they were already doing, because that would be interesting to know (you can find my contact details on my blog, Companion Animal Psychology). I would love to know that.
Thanks so much Zazie, for your book, your interview, and your dedication to improving the lives of companion animals!
Cover photo Zazie with Bodger, credit Bad Monkey Photography.